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BUG OUT BOATS

topic posted Sun, September 5, 2010 - 5:15 PM by  crazy joe
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In the past 18 months , as I have surfed way to many survival web sites , I continue to see very little if any information in regards to boats for bug out purposes . Plenty on kayaks ( whoopdee - the F word with ing at the end - do ) and canoes but no real topics on / where to learn and how to operate / what to or what not to buy / the ins and outs of boating / instruction / care / learning local navigaton in relation to your location and where you can bug out to from there / etc. . I have not seen anything on group efforts meaning 2 or 3 folks going in on that bargain priced 26 to 36 footer having bunk space for up to 8 people . Nothing on gas versus diesel engines . Nothing on marine engine repair . Nothing on any of it . Since the USA has about 8 , 000 miles of coastline and what ? 20 , 000 miles of medium to large river waterways it makes me wonder why nothing is discussed anywhere . Somewhere in my brain the number of Americans living on or within 45 miles of any coast is something like half the population ?? Not even the " Holy Grail himself JW Rawles " has not had much on his site the past 10 years on boating - kayaks yes but real boats no . Here in South Jersey those of us raised on boats just take them for granted and when our bug out thing started around 1971 we just knew when Philly and North Jersey / New York City got nuked our logical course of action and form of transportation would be to bug out on a boat . Simply go out 15 miles , watch some glow , then head north or south . Especially before being over run by glowing shoobies heading down here from up north . So as hurrican Earl left here 2 days ago some of my friends are now getting their boats back into the water . Fishing is the main reason for owning a boat . Fish are still here . Fishing will be good ,if like last year , till Xmas . Only shoobs take their boats out for good by Sept 15 . . Do so few of you ( you meaning all in the survival realm not just you members of Ricks pre postapoc ) not own boats so that this topic is lost amongst the firestarters , tanning wolf hides and heirloom seeds ?? As I replied to Horse's post on " what is your bug out vehicle " mine would be a grady white having a diesel engine . Am I the only one with a navigational chart 4 ' X 4 ' ( the Delaware Bay with South Jersey and Delaware coastline ) hanging on the wall ? Buoy 19 if SHTF bring more beer . crazy joe
posted by:
crazy  joe
New Jersey
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  • If you are thinking of long term survival you probably want to look at getting a sailboat so that you are not limited by fuel. Sailing boats traversed the world prior to the invention of engine driven vessals

    .
    • sailboats dont run out of fuel...lol

      as for navigation, have a look here:

      thesurvivalist.tribe.net/threa...87b28e

      and by all means read the book major hooked me up with
      "long voyage back" by rhineheart
      id call it an essential read
      • I'd say the sailboat is the only way to go for survivalist minded folks. I went out fishing with a friend from my church who owns a 60 foot motor yacht. It has two 400 gal diesel tanks but that will not get you from Alaska to Hawaii he said. He also told me the last time he filled the tanks he paid almost $5.00 a gal for diesel. I guess that is why they say "If you ask how much a yacht costs, you can't afford it." It is a nice boat but definately not a survival boat. Although it can handle the ocean, once the fuel is gone, it would be helpless.
        • dont those things get like 'gallons to the mile'?
          • If I was gonna survive long-term afloat I'd probably lean towards the ocean since you can farm a lot of the kelp and such below the water. You cannot survive long-term on fish alone.

            Problem is, I have tried a lot of that kelp and crap that comes from the ocean and it is fucking terrible. Maybe Nemo's chef could make it palatable, but all the ocean crops I have tried were either groser than snot, or taste like spinach.

            Joe; have you studied this topic much?
  • Rick knows a thing or 2 about bug out boats.
    • Unsu...
       
      Yeah.... as I recall, he bugged out from his boat idea, and lives a pretty good ways inland now lol.
    • To grow you need clean water. How long do those desalinator pumps work before you have to change the filter or whatever? How likely is it that you can ghetto-rebuild one after you run out of new filters? Can you use your own charcoal?
  • No No No .......... not kevin costner in the movie " waterworld " fanasty living . no lugging around a tomato plant in a flower pot over 1000 miles of ocean . no 20 sailboats tied up together singing kum by ya at the setting sun . bug out boats .
    " BEAST
    - you live in Michigan - Oceana County - 14 miles east is the sleepy little town of Pentwater . Your " network " friend has his 20 foot Robalo tied up there at the marina . All the state forest around you is on fire . Super windy conditions and roads are choked with traffic and smoke and its getting worse . you grab some stuff and head to the marina in 15 minutes - on the boat and off you and 5 others go 60 miles south to the coastal town of Muskegon .
    " MAJOR DAD " - you live in Juneau Alaska - boat or plane is the only way on or off . Your network friend with his 60 foot boat calls you in the middle of the night . Looks like the mountain behind the city is a volcano and its rumbling . Not waiting for NOAA or the Government response to smoke , embers and the ground shaking you and 14 others grab some gear and head to the dock in 20 mins and out to sea for 30 miles . you are much safer and the bug out on a boat drill practiced a few times made all go smoothly for everyone . Sitka is only a 140 miles to the south and network friends there are ready to open a beer for ya as soon as you dock .
    " Myself - CRAZY JOE " We in the part of the network living in / on the peninsula of South Jersey view boats - after fishing , partying and sex purposes - as bug out vehicles no different than any car or 4 X wheel drive vehicle which will all be stuck in traffic with 1 million other cars while we can just go out 10 to 20 miles - watch , learn , wait , evaluate , see what is happening on the mainland . Boats become our cars / 4 X drive vehicles . Way back in 1975 one part of the plan was to cut through the Delaware Canal , if the situation allowed , to the Chesapeake Bay - Maryland side - and up the Susquehanna River and go above Harrisburg Pa. . Little did any of us 20 yr olds know someone built the Coniswego Dam back in the 1920's - it was not on the road map of Maryland and Pennsylvania . We knew about the dam across the Schukyll River in Philly but not this one . Friends in Maryland and York County PA pointed the flaw in our nautical bug out plan . DAM - Another variable - no pun there . A more serious look at inland waterways . The New York Canal , the Erie Canal , the Hudson River , the Potomac ( probably glowing so why bother with that way ) , Our friends / relatives who live on or near the water of the Great Lakes have bug out boat plans besides the 4 wheel drive kind . My cousin on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan expects me to sail up the St. Lawerence , steal a boat above Niagra falls and continue all the way to Lake Superior . All of us have viewed , if need be , the boat bug out as a first choice in many disaster scenarios . Who wants to sit on Interstate 95 for 10 days while chaos reigns all around you not to mention whining crying children and liberals . We have no intention of lugging a tomato plant around the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean in a catamaran .
    • im on saginaw bay. my friends are commercial fishermen
      my boat will sit in their little cove, waiting
      if im not out of here before TSHTF
      i will sail out of the bay, up and around the northrn tip
      down lake michigan to chi-town and take the new cahannel thru to the mississippi
      then down out into the gulf and out on the ocean
      • Trying to sail through Chi-town in a SHTF senario is not a good idea, Beast. The bridges and walks would make you a sitting duck for anyone standing on one of the bridges or streets with a gun. Plus if your boat is large, the bridges would have to be raised and that would make it very difficult to get through to the Des Plains River. Plus there are several Locks and Dams on the Illinois that would have to be traversed.

        The same is true for travel on the Mississippi River too. I was north of St Louis last Friday on the Mississippi doing some Bow Fishing with my son and daughter in law. We launched out on the Mississippi in Louisianna, MO and went down to just above the Locks and Dam at Clarksville. It was great bow fishing - we got 64 fish. But it you plan on traversing major inland water ways, make sure you know how to get around the locks and dams that have made commercial barge traffic possible

        You would probably have less problems heading for the St Lawerance Seaway - through the Great Lakes. BUt there are still locks and dams to navigate no matter which way you go. If fact - a few years ago I was at the lock that allows ships to go from Lake Superior into Lake Michigan. So make sure you factor this into your planning.

        I'm sure you have thought all this through, but I thought that I would mention it anyway

        Semper fi
        • havent been that way yet so im only guessin what its like
          all i know is some prey big craft come up thru there
          if i have my preference id sail before TSHTF
          and have a nice safe leisurely trip :)
          thnx for th heads up major, now ill be lookin into it more
          • going thru chicago, they have to raise the bridges for tall craft to come down the river and there are several of them. I know of at least a dozen lock and dams on the Illinois river and the Mississippi river. It takes power to open the gates and close them. The water will fill and drain out but you need power to open and close the locks and the power grid may not be up.

            I know of the one lock between lake Superior and Lake Michigan because we visited it a few years ago on vacation while taking my wife on a "lighthouses of the Great Lakes" tour. There are probably more locks and dams but I do not know where to tell you to look.

            I am sure there are nautical maps that will show where the locks and dams are as well as other navigational hazards, but I can not tell you where to get ahold of them.

            But if you plan to get out of Lake Superior, I am pretty sure you will have to go through a lock. Of course, I would not be the first time I was wrong about something. While I was there some big freighters came through the lock. I do not know of every ship has to go through it but the big ones did. THere may be way for smaller craft to get through - I don't know, but it is something that definately needs to be checked out as it definately could impact your plans.
    • great scenario - but unfortunately my friend's boat is docked 2 hours away in Seward. There is no dock in Anchorage that can handle his boat other than the ocean going commercial docks. Also most private boats are winterized in September and would take about a week to get ready to pull out of port.

      If we only had 30 minutes to clear Anchorage - we are cooked. There is only one road out going both North and South and there would be 300,000 people trying to go somewhere.
      • Unsu...
         
        Howdy guys, Im back on this board for while and will be checking n now and then at my tactics forum. I have 5 freaking boats. Canoe, pedal boat ( glorified swim platform), 14 foot John boat powered by a 9.9 2 stroke merc. , 176 (17ft.9inch) Starcraft Super fisherman powered by a 115 merc 4 stroke outboard and we just had a small cabin cruiser given to us by my wifes uncle. 24 foot 1988 245 Four winns Vista cruiser. I just picked up a trailor for it yesterday. Bug out by boat would be suicide unless you were going someplace like an Island. My starcraft could make it all the way across Lake Michigan from Muskegon easy in about 2 hours. The Vista in about 3 hours. Both would burn alot of gas doing that. I am pretty experienced with boats and can tell you they all get horrid gas mileage. This Vista will use over 20 gallons just to fish for one whole day trolling. My Starcraft uses 12 to 14 gallons to troll for a whole day. Thats 12 hours at 4 mph. The little Jon boat will only use 3 to 5 gallons in 12 hours. I can go a lot farther by car or motorcycle. W e will be keeping our Vista on Lake St. Clair next summer moored at one of the 50 or so Marinas. We fish there for Musky. I f the shtf while we were on the water there it would be a real bitch getting out of Detroit and on the road home. I doubt Ill be going anywhere in that boat in a shtf scenario. I would get back to the marina and use the car to get home. (if possible). W e are working a a bug home plan for that possibility.

        We live on a small lake so we use the pedal boat for swimming and fishing. The canoe as well and the little jon for lakes around our home.. The Star Craft is really the only boat we have that is fast enough to go anywhere with any speed. It does 40 flat out empty 30/35 loaded down with gear and gas. I can trailor it most anywhere in Michigan. Lots of Islands near the upper part of the State like Beaver, Mackinac, and some big ones like Isle Royal way up north but those are pretty far from us. I would stay off of the rivers in Michigan as the people living on them would be able to whack anyone trying to use them as roads. . To me unless you have an Island to go to and supplies to make your Island a BOL you would be screwed. Im betting my area of Michigan is not going to burn up or fall into the seas ha ha ha . No fantasy here. Just the farm. Mike
        • Sux that boats use so much fuel
          • only th ones with motors :P
            • Unsu...
               
              Wind worked VERY reliably for thousands of years. Contrary to many people's perceptive image of history, jumping the pond of the atlantic in the 1700s and 1800s was considered very easy, safe, and routine, once the good winds and currents were mapped out it was like a system of highways out there. In the busiest of trade times a merchant vessel might see eight ships in a day, each going their own way out on the waters.

              Once you know the currents and wind of the places you want to go, wind is just as good as a motor, 90% of the time. It just requires a lot of labor to keep the ship trimmed and running efficiently.
              • tht depends on your style of rigging and sail configuration
                but yes, from everything ive seen there ar very definite airstreams
                fairly stable and reliable
                • Unsu...
                   
                  This has been brought up on other boards as well. Did anyone stop to think that Pirates will return as the rulers of the seas??????? Even in the Great lakes I am sure Pirates will be looting coastal towns and homes and any boats they find in their path. Mike
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    One other thing about Sail boats. If you dont know how to sail now?? After the shtf you will not have time to learn. Sail boats require some training to go where you want to instead of letting the wind blow you where it wants to. Mike
                    • There is always solar powered trolling motors. A few batteries, some solar cells, and a trolling motor or two. Not fast or sexy, but it'll get you around lake Michigan.

                      I guess you would have no trouble growing plants on a boat in fresh water. I always overlook that option since there is so little of it in Az. But in land of 10000 lakes, you could do okay.
                      • Unsu...
                         
                        solar stills... seems like a body could set up a whole field of floating solar stills, just throw them out like a floating net and leave em for a couple days... Until you have enough to fill your water reserves. I don't understand how people with this kind of technology can run out of water on the ocean.
                        • most of the solar stills have to be set perfectly level and unmoving
                          otherwise your water gets recontaminated
                          kind of hard to do that when floating on an ocean
                          that rarely, if ever, is dead calm
                          • Lake Michigan is big enough it feels almost like an ocean. The water even gets pretty rough. Not quite ocean swells....

                            Growing takes a lot of realestate. More than a boat provides. I wonder if you could rig up floating gardens that essentially work like hydroponic bays. You could throw them out like floating platforms, anchor them in place, and use your trolling motor to tend to your garden. The roots would just dangle down into the water. Not sure if they would get enough nutrients that way.
                            • as far as living out on one of the great lakes as a survivor
                              it would be great, during the summer
                              winter is another story
                              ice several feet thick
                              the occasional small iceberg to cave in your hull
                              temps very cold, wind wicked as hell
                              you can only get to shore where the coast guard icebreakers have gone thru
                              spring and fall are gad for boating unless youve a big ship with an iron hull
                              and as major said, its bound to be overrun with pirates
                              specially the routes in and out
                              • I just got back from about 3 weeks of vacation in the lower 48. We flew down and rented a car and drove over 3500 miles in 3 weeks. While there I spent some of the time with my youngest son doing some bow-fishing on the Mississippi river. We went out on the river for about 3 hours and ended up with 64 Asian carp in the boat. I know that this is considered a trash fish but some of tem were almost 3 feet long and weighed in at least 10 pounds.

                                Does anyone know what an Asian Carp tastes like? I am willing to bet that although they may not taste like our Alaskan salmon, it seems to me that if they even slightly eatable, you certainly would not stave to death with them around. It seems that anyone with a boat and motor could get a good amount of fish simply by motoring around some of the sandbars on the Mississippi and its tributaries and letting them jump in your boat.

                                BTW - we only shot about 10 of them - the other 50 or so simply jumped into the boat as we motored around. Sometimes we had 15-20 fish jumping in the air at the same time. (I even got some short video clips of it to show my disbelieving friends.) If I lived around there I would become a much better shot with a bow. I had not shot a bow in years and could not hit anything. Both my son and my daughter in law got more than I did. But I did enjoy the overall trip.
                                • watch for a mudvein along the bottom
                                  other than that im sure they tast like fish :P
                                  • There was a lot off meat on most of the Asian Carp - but being carp, I imagine there are also a lot of little bones in them as well. When growing up, us guys would go camping and fishing for days at a time. We ate a lot of catfish and some carp. The meat was not bad but there were a lot of little bones. I've never had Asian Carp so I don't know about them though.
                                    • id treat them like any other carp
                                      then you can tell us how they taste :)
                                      soaking them in vinegar for a while
                                      should take care of a lot of the bones BTW
                                      • Well we ended up throwing them all back in the river. Missouri classifies Asian Carp as a nuisance fish because they are overwhelming all the natural species. A lot of people go out just to kill them off.

                                        It was a lot of fun even though I couldn't hit a fish in mid-air with an arrow. I need more practice. Any volunteers want to help by putting an apple on their head? LOL
                                        • a commercial fisher friend of mine has been catching them in saginaw bay
                                          he told me he is involved in a lawsuit against the states for allowing them in
                                          they are a serious nuisance fish, something we dont need
                                          specially after the DNR overstocked walleye for the sport fishermen and they have
                                          starved out or eaten most of the other great lakes sport fish
                                          come over to lake huron and see how many perch, bass or 'gills' you can catch in a day
                                          not many.....
                                          • Unsu...
                                             
                                            I know in Japan, carp holds it's own as an edible fish among all the others we like to eat over here. It's not considered a 'trash fish' at all.

                                            Having said that, I can't remember if I tried it or not. There were a lot of foods I ate out there without knowing what they were, exactly. Not that it was a mystery, I just didn't bother asking. There were only one or two foods I didn't like, out of hundreds of new flavors I loved.
                                            • I've tried carp and I can tell you the best recipe for cooking it.

                                              Step one, find a fresh cut piece of pine wood approx. 1 foot long by 6 inches wide.
                                              After cleaning, washing, and filleting the carp, season it well with garlic salt, some lemon pepper, and some lemon juice.
                                              Place the carp on top of the pine wood and put all that on the bbq pit.
                                              Smoke slowly on the pit over hickory or mesquite wood for about two hours.
                                              After two hours take the carp and wrap it in bacon.
                                              Next, take the carp wrap AND the pine board and wrap them in aluminum foil.
                                              Continue smoking for another hour.
                                              Finally, unwrap the carp and board. Toss the carp, eat the board.


                                              • Dave,
                                                I've eaten some things that make that board sound good. However, as much as I would usually not think of carp as a food source, some of those big ones we killed and threw back would have probably made a thick stew if not a filet. If's funny that the hungrier one gets, the less picky we become about food.

                                                As long as Asian Carp don't have something in then that will kill you (like some exotic Asian fish) then I will leave it in the back of my mind as a potential (if poor tasting) food source. Although that would apply only when I'm in the lower 48. To my knowledge we don't have them in AK.
                                                • hunger makes the greatest sauce
                                                  • "After two hours take the carp and wrap it in bacon."
                                                    The real secret to that recipe :)

                                                    You could wrap dog shit in bacon and it would be palatable.


                                                    I'd eat the Asian carp. I've never understood people not eating some types of fish. A lotta folks shun catfish because it is a mud eater (lives down there with the defense lawyers,) but I'll eat the shit out of catfish.

                                                    When it comes to bones, I prefer ocean fish. Freshwater fish have more flavor, but the bones are a PITA. Saltwater fish have huge bones that filet easily. Of course along with the big bones they also have bony spines, claws, teeth, leather skin, and spikes. Salt water fishing is more exciting (never know what you;re gonna catch.) Fresh water fishing is all about the beer drinking.
                                                    • Unsu...
                                                       
                                                      'fresh water fishing is all about the beer drinking'

                                                      for most folks I'd agree. I'm a very sporting fly-fisherman. I spend the whole time actively working a stream, moving from place to place, paying attention to the local bug life and fish activity cycles, and adjusting my lure or making up a new one accordingly. I use barbless hooks, homemade flies, and 2.25 pound tippet, so I really have to play the fish out carefully to win. I come home tired and happy after having seen a good sight of pristine wilderness on foot. Sometimes many many miles of riverbanks each day.

                                                      Never did understand what's so fun about a cooler full of beer, a boat sitting dead on a lake in the hot sun, a fish finder, digital A.I. lures, super snaggy hooks and high-tensile line when you're going after fish that are usually far less than 10 pounds.
                                                      • its like playin football, your teamhad 120 guys, the other one the legal amount
                                                        thats what modern fishin and hunting is all about
                                                        takin a machinegun to a stick fight
                                                        • Unsu...
                                                           
                                                          For me, the outdoor game-sports are more of a personal challenge of skill and betterment. I don't do it for bragging rights, so I'm not as desperately motivated to come home with a kill like these guys who invest their children's college fund into scentless camo material and tree-mounted digital camera wilderness surveilance systems.

                                                          All my rifles are iron-sighted. No scopes.

                                                          If I used a bow, it would be made of wood... or maybe a fiberglass recurve. None of this compound camo sniper system stuff, with range-marking fiber optics and counterbalances and harmonic dampers and an actual trigger to release the string.

                                                          I really think modern hunting is a half step away from having men subscribe to work in a slaughterhouse where the owner brings hand-raised deer and turkey into a chute, with the hunter waiting at the other end with his weapon loaded and ready.
                                                          • youd be amazed at thefarms up here that raise deer for those hunters to come hunt like that
                                                            they pay $7k and up for a tame hand raised deer to come thru the chute for them to kill
                                                            there are 3 in my area alone that raise them
                                                            and people wonder why modern hunters and hunting sickens me
                                                            • I have to agree with ATGI. Fishing with sonar is soooo gay (no offense to any gay people in the tribe.)

                                                              I have always found it funny how many archery hunters get snobbish when you mention owning a crossbow. They really turn into assholes. what is so interesting is that these are the same guys with carbon fiber arrows, 60% letoff compound recurves, and limbs made from the same materials found on the space shuttle. If you want to talk shit to me, then you better be hunting with a long bow or something made from lemmon wood.

                                                              My crossbow has no pulleys, just a 150lb recurve bow with a heavy trigger.

                                                              I also agree with Beast. I got tired of hunting during general deer season because of all the yahoos out there. Opening day of rifle season does more to tarnish the image of gun owners than any headlines.
                                                              • lol, i dont call it rifle deer season
                                                                havent for years
                                                                i call it asshole season
                                                                and i stay indoors for at least the first 3 days
                                                                • I remember one year I was out in this valley, opening day, right at dawn (start of the neason) and some asshole in the next valley over fires off 11 rounds like target practice. Didn't see anything in that valley for the rest of the day.

                                                                  Blackpowder season is a much better class of hunters. Though I really dissapprove of those modern inline muzzleloaders. BP should be done wtih replicas.
                                                                  • Unsu...
                                                                     
                                                                    Really you guys need another topic, Fishing with sonar is Gay????????? No scopes?? get real will ya?? I am a professional fisherman. And I use those new fangled compound bows and guns with scopes and have boats and and and jeese o pete. Give me freaking break you sound like fucking Peta liberal hippies. You guys all got corrupted by the left while I was gone. Ik , I cant see my iron sigts any more due to diabetic eye problems and blended bifocals so I use a scope . Its not cheating. I use a sonar to tell me how deep the damned water is not to locate fish, none of us locate fish with them its a tool to like a gps. They tell you where you are. Good lord guys. Im not believing this shit. Hunting is good. If we didnt hunt deer they would be all over the fucking roads in Michigan , you of all people Beast should know this. We kill a million a year and they increase in numbers. Guys ,thats a good thing ya dig???????????????? Lots of free food when the shit hits the fan. Mike
                                                                    • im not against hunting mike, im against the idiots in my woods...lol
                                                                      • Unsu...
                                                                         
                                                                        Yes there are idiots in the woods with guns. But several statement made like scopes are unfair and sonar is gay . I mean come on guys we have invented some pretty cool stuff. Let me talk a minute about archery improvements. Years ago we had simple string bows that wounded a lot of deer. Hundreds of deer every year just in my surrounding counties died in the woods slow painfull deaths from arrow wounds. These animals were wasted year after year. There was a real need for faster flatter shooting bows that had better power and speed. These improvement came with the Compound bow . I can tell you I have taken 46 deer since 1985 with a bow. The same bow for all of those years. It is a Bear White Tail II 65 pound compound bow. Shoots 210 feet per second and will blow a 100 grain broadhead right through any deer with a solid chest shoot to the lungs. This insures that my deer are recovered and not lost because I was shooting an old long boaw and missed the mark. I have to laugh at anyone who thinks they will walk out into the woods and carve a stick bow and some arrows and kill a deer. I only know one guy who has built his own long bow from Orange Osage wood and makes his own cedar arrows and stone broad heads. He is a top of the line craftsman and one in million as far as Archers go. He kills his deer every year with his long bow and he practices on Chipmonks. H e is that good. 99 out of a 100 others are not.

                                                                        I fought long and hard for legal baiting in Michigan and now its illegal again. With a deer herd that needs thinning state wide once again the government steps in and fucks things up. Baiting brings these deer into easy bow range where (AVERAGE)hunters can make (CLEAN SHOTS) . The bottom line is either we control the deer numbers or the government comes in and kills them. Peta would have us poison them if the numbers got to great or they would have us put Mountain lions in quiet little suburbs. Google California mountain lion attacks on the rise. Once again government totally fucking things up. Any one can opt for the stealth hunt with simple stick and string using scents and all natural arrows and broad heads. Its a free country. My hats off to them. But real population control of deer needs to managed on sound facts not old romantic ideals.

                                                                        Any fisherman knows that a depthfinder(sonar unit) simply tells the fisherman that the water is a certain depth,certain temp., and that there is or is not something under the boat. What that something is has to be explored. Even under water cameras like Walkers strike vision can be used. Charter boats here use strike vision so clients can watch fish come up behind the lures and eat the baiut. It fun as all get out watching your lures running under water. These things really dont help slaughter fish as much as some people think. There are many places for instance that without these advancements I could tear the bottom out my boat and die. Georgian bay for instance where there are thousands of submerged rocks and tens of thousands of wrecks due to them. With out these tools many more people would die up there. I am all for returning to nature in many regards but I am glad for many advancements in these fields. Mike
                                                                        • sorry mike. but to me baiting isnt hunting
                                                                          it should be liscensed as trapping cuz thats what it is
                                                                          and i happened to se how many cattle got killed and burried
                                                                          becuz of TB from bait piles, they are more harm than good

                                                                          i dont see that much of a deer overpopulation problem
                                                                          what i see most is the deer ARE getting smaller bcuz
                                                                          too many trophy hunters and not enuff real hunters that know wtf they are doing
                                                                          we arent helping the herds a bit with th currnt regs and rules
                                                                          i dont recommend more rules but some sort of training for woud be hunters
                                                                          and not just a yearly freeforall on everything that moves
                                                                          during 2 weeks of drunken debauchery would be a start
                                                                          as for the sport of hunting...sinc when is killng a sport????
                                                                          maybe we should build a new modern coliseum
                                                                          and start the romans games back up........
                                                                          • Agreed. Somewhere along the way it became akin to hunting with smart bombs.

                                                                            And if you have a Bear bow then you should know that Fred Bear made his name killing Boone & Crocket sized grizzly with nothing more than a curved stick. He was knocking 'em dead long before the compound bow. That's balls.

                                                                            Baiting is cheating. I'm not even very keen on tree stands. I more respect a hunter that stalks his prey than one who sets out bait all year long and waits for it on a folding chair.

                                                                            I have scoped rifles, even a scoped crossbow, but the rifles are all bolt actions. I don;t much care for the trend toward hunting with assault weapons.
                                                                            • Unsu...
                                                                               
                                                                              It bugs the hell out of me when people use live minnows as fishing lure... one invariably gets away, or they dump the extra into the lake when they're done.... these things grow to 12 inches long and compete with native fish for food and habitat... not to mention how utterly disappointing it is to bring in a caught fish, only to discover it's a 10 inch minnow.
                                                                              • yeah, when VHS was first starting up here
                                                                                th DNR stopped all fish coming into or out of the area
                                                                                but yu could buy uncontrolled contaminated
                                                                                minnows and dump them anywhere you wanted
                                                                                now every lake pond stream and river is contaminated with it
                                                                                • Unsu...
                                                                                   
                                                                                  Vhs came from Lake Ontario and had nothing to do with bait fish or minnows. Vhs can and was spread due to Transfer of contaminated minnows. That is how Budd Lake got infected. VHS Also is spread on the feet and in the feathers of Ducks and Geese and live wells in boats. But this disease started in Lake Ontario and spread to Lake St. Clair. It has spread all over the Great Lakes but has not proved to be the end all type disease that many worried about. In fact it only kills the weakest in the systems leaving stronger fish with immunity to it. It will run its course as others did.

                                                                                  Beast, Bait piles have been illegal for years now. We were down to a 5 gallon pail . TB was not spread by Baiting but by Deer touching noses. This is all been proven over and over again. Wild apple trees cause more gathering of Deer then any other instance. There is no move to ban planting of apple trees is there? The ground here is covered with apples every fall as they drop and that is millions of apples tens of millions state wide. It simply is not true that baiting spreads disease. I dont advocate the use of Sugar beets and or Carrots as these are not natural foods for the deer. W e always used a few apples or some acorns and corn. Smaller deer?? Maybe by you. Over here in farm country ours are corn fed, huge and fat. My last three does averaged 130 pounds dressed. Thats near 190 on the hoof. Over here they have always been that big. No matter now as its illegal to baiut at all. Once again the D.N.R. overreacts to some disease in kent county in a deer farm and shit cans the rights of the rest of us. You are correct though that we have mismanaged our deer herd. Shooting bucks only for 50 years has had terrible effects on the genetics. When spindle rack bucks have available does to breed it furthers the gene pool of that animal. State forest deer are smaller and do not even come close to better managed deer on private property. The best thing the state could do is ban the shooting of all bucks for 2 years. This would put three year classes of bucks in the woods. Then there should be a limit of one buck per hunter period. This would cause sparring for available does and insure that the strongest bucks got them. W e can argue all day about fishing and hunting. I am the thousand Good intentions of those sports. I am seriously far more informed then any of you in regards to these things. I work every year with the Michigan D.N.R. in fish stocking efforts and know the fisheries here inside and out. I was fighting VHS in 2005. I supported limiting bait to one bucket and helped with a study on TB in whitetails. I know the biology behind both . I have been a member of the M.U.C.C. for 20 years. (Michigan United Conservation Clubs) and am currently on the board of the Michigan Muskie Alliance. We deal with the issues in our fishing community every day. Mike
                                                                                  • Unsu...
                                                                                     

                                                                                    It bugs the hell out of me when people use live minnows as fishing lure... one invariably gets away, or they dump the extra into the lake when they're done.... these things grow to 12 inches long and compete with native fish for food and habitat... not to mention how utterly disappointing it is to bring in a caught fish, only to discover it's a 10 inch minnow. Quote from 1K

                                                                                    1K , are you serious? Bait minnows like shiners,suckers and fatheads are found in every lake around here. Most bait dealers used to net or trap minnows from area lakes to sell as bait. Its not like they are an invasive species. In recent years in our state the Government stepped in and now force bait dealers to buy from ponds so they can make sure that disease is not spread to lakes from bait. Only certified tested fish farms can now sell minnows. It is Illegal now to use fish from one lake as bait in another. The only reason you would get a 10 inch Shiner minnow is if there were no predator fish. Mike
                                                                                    • Unsu...
                                                                                       
                                                                                      ... Up in the rockies, they ARE an invasive species. And they have no natural predators because they didn't adapt and grow with the rest of the ecosystem out there.

                                                                                      Apparently, everyone in Michigan brought them over by the bucketfull lol.
                                                                                      • Unsu...
                                                                                         
                                                                                        Not ha ha ha , Even rockies trout eat minnows of some kind. Im sure those lakes have some form of baitfish for the trout to eat. Mudllers, creek chubs and little silver shiners. The truth is probably that trout numbers are down due to over harvest. I do agree however that invasive species should not be introduced into lakes where they dont exist. Just look at how many invasives we have in ythe great lakes from Ocean going ships that dump ballast water in our lakes. Spiny water fleas, Zebra mussel, Goby, Rouffe, Alewife etc. We had to stock Salmon to eat the Alewife which were the fish major invasive in Lakes Michigan, Huron and Ontario. Governments are the main problem with importation of invasive species. For instance in your mountain lakes bait stores should trap minnows for sale from area lakes where they are native. Instead so they can control and take money from bait dealers they make us buy from government inspected fish farms. W e used to go trout fishing in Canada and we would just take a minnow trap with us and the first night we would drop it in the lake and by morning it had several dozen minnows in it. Then we would go brook trout fishing on these small chains of lakes It was great. Now they dont allow you to trap minnows you have to buy them. Just more cluster fucking from the governments. Mike
                                                                                        • We have minnows down here in streams that do not connect with any river, and have never been fished in (because there are no fish to fish for.) I grew up near a stream that only has water in it for about 3 miles, and we used to spend the summer catching minnows.

                                                                                          And bait buckets are cheating. In AZ we don;t even allow those deer licks. The only hunting assistance I condone is using dogs to hunt mountain lion. You have to, otherwise you'd never find them.
                                                                                        • Unsu...
                                                                                           
                                                                                          I always slit the belly of the fish I keep... I mean, open the stomach to see what they're eating. It helps me catch more subsequent fish.

                                                                                          I've never found another fish, or any part of another fish, in a trout. Just bug parts. Sometimes bits of twigs, maybe a salmon egg in very heavily fished areas (I really try to stay to places remote enough to only see one or two fishermen a year... if that) And the only small fish I've seen in the waterways were fingerling trout in the streams that don't connect to a lake. In the lakes, sometimes there are little tiny guppy lookin things. Maybe that's what you're referring to. But I've never seen a trout eat one, and they aren't the ones that grow to 12 inches and compete with the trout. At least, I'm pretty sure they're not. They look very different.
                                                                                          • a lot of strange fish are brought in by birds
                                                                                            at moms we have a catch basin for excess runoff
                                                                                            makes a good swimminhole, w have never put fish in it
                                                                                            yet weve caught thousands of bullheads and a couple bluegill
                                                                                            and there are definitely minnows in it
                                                                                            when i ran the fish farm out on saginaw bay
                                                                                            we woud come up with a lot of strange fish that we knew we didnt put there
                                                                                            sheepsheads, shiners, pike, bass, even a couple eels and lots of suckers
                                                                                            and everyday id be out chasin away cormorants, egrets and hurons
                                                                                            • It would be nice if there was more fishing in AZ. Down here we have a Game and Fish department (most states have a Fish n Game dept.)

                                                                                              I used to work with this little vietnamese guy who was some kind of fishing savant. He would catch bags of fish when no one else could catch anything. He would throw a handful of corn out into the water to create a feeding buzz, then throw his corn-baited hook in the middle. He said that once they got to a frenzy over the corn, they would not think twice about chomping down on his hook. They threw caution to the wind.

                                                                                              Anyone use corn?
                                                                                              • Unsu...
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                Brent told me about corn. He said you can catch more trout on corn than salmon eggs or anything else. Sounds smart to 'camouflage' your bait among a cloud of corn... if there are enough fish to create a frenzy.
                                • Unsu...
                                   
                                  Hi major dad, I think the rule of thumb is that any fish with scales is safe, although there is allways an exeption,
                                  • Thanks,
                                    Good to eat and good to the taste are two different things. (I have eaten both and prefer the combination of the two when ever I can get it) I'm curious if anyone has actually tasted the asian carp. Not that I plan on eating them any time soon. To my knowledge, I don't have any here in Alaska.

                                    But thanks for the input.

                                    • Unsu...
                                       
                                      Carp used to be a staple food over here in the past, I'm not sure how well it works but most people who still eat it,confine it in a fish pen situated in a clean freshwater stream to flush out the muddy taste, I can't see how asian carp would be that different.
  • A bug out boat worked for Noah. Trout like marshmellows too.
    • is nothing new in NJ and PA . have known a few guys who dip it in flour 1st . then again bluegills , minnies , sunnies will hit on spit . always fun to do plus after a few luggies and the little guys churning up the surface the bigger guys start lurking in the background .
    • Unsu...
       
      Somehow, Jenn... I bet Noah's bugout boat wouldn't have worked as well if the bad guys had also made a bugout boat. But it would have made the story a hell of a lot better. A pirate ship fight to the death between the last two groups of surviving humanity?

      I should have been the one to write the bible. It would have been way more awesome.
      • so write us a new one, everybody els does....lol
        • Unsu...
           
          I keep wondering when a new politically correct bible will come out with the story of ''Adam and Steve'' lol
          • Adam will be black and steve will be chinese. Like the review of the Secretariat movie. It wasnt multicultural enough, borderline racist and was tea party fantasies of what America used to be. LOL
            • Oh yeah, Eve would abort Able elimating his carbon foot print and Cain would be a senator from California and funder of the man/boy love association.
              • Unsu...
                 
                that's true. There isn't enough multiculturalism in the bible. It's all just white jews and romans and greeks. The only black guy was pharaoh, and he was portrayed as a bad guy.

                pharaoh needs to be a white republican, and the slaves were all blacks, to be set free by the Reverend Jesse Jackson.


                And let's not forget who the REAL savior is.... Barack Obama!
                • nice poster....
                  the nativity with obama in the manger wearin a turban
                  caption...... 'Is this your idea of a savior?"
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    You could read all about global warming in revalations. ha ha ha
                    • Then Obama opened the 2nd seal and come see. Al Gore beheld and lo the sun was half a degree hotter on august 23rd of 09 than it was in 1976.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    unto this earth a childwas born
                    he promised peace and ended war
                    spent until there was no more
                    and taxed us out of our own doors
                    made promises he couldnt keep
                    then robbed our banks while we did sleep
                    gave us care that wasnt real
                    didnt ask us how we feel
                    he was our savior we were told
                    as we were coached to not grow old
                    it is far better if we die
                    then that he share his piece of pie
            • I heard a black chaplain say one time -in a humorous mood and moment at informal function at an Army Officer;s club - that he knew for sure that Adam was not a "person of color."

              He then asked "Do you know why I say that?" We replied "NO'

              The preacher then said "You ever try taking a rib from a black man." and then just roared with laughter.

              That is from the chaplains corps of the good ol' US Army.

              I'll let you take it for what it is - those are his words - not mine.
              • I thought there was enough drama in the bible. Didn;t one guy slay a thousand people with the jawbone of an ass? People always fooling around on one another, folks being turned to salt, sodomy...

                They sounded busy enough back then. I always thought it funny when my folks would say "That sort of thing wasn;t done when we were kids..." Then I would point to the Bible.
                • Unsu...
                   
                  the jawbone of an ass?

                  I hadn't heard that one. Sounds cool.

                  There are so many obscure stories in the bible that nobody really pays attention to. Like the bald prophet who was passing along a road, and some little kids started making fun of him for being bald, so he summoned a bear from the wilderness that ate the kids lol.

                  And there are refferences to a whole other species of humanoids... giants. Like, real, 13-19 foot-tall giants. Called the Nephilim, and the Anakim. They had their own societies, kings, etc... but they were definitely not just 'large humans'... they were another intelligent species. One of the most notable refferences was when god commanded the israelites to slay them which resided in the valley of Canan, and they shied away because the cananites were giants, or had giants among them. But if you look, there are many, many refferences to this species of giants. It appears as if they were a competetive species with the humans early on, maybe predating us... and we wiped them out sometime around 1,800 BC or prior.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    samson was the jawbone wielder
                    slew a whole army with one he picked up from the side of the road
                    of course that was before he met Delilah :)
                    some lesson or other there about females ruining mans strengths....lol
                    • Unsu...
                       
                      It wasn't an army, it was 1000 men.

                      Lots of references to what could be interpreted as alien visitation can be found in the Bible, as well as religous artwork.

                      Here. Chew on this:
                      www.cracked.com/article_18...-bible.html
                      • Unsu...
                         
                        And, I can't find a single version of the passage that declares "he found it on the side of the road." Get your facts straight before you go spoutin' bullshit.
                        • which adaptation are you reading? one of the king james?
                          i got it from a dewey, the old catholic version written in old english
                          im sorry they changed all the wording for the king james versions
                          • lol, there are no "hard"facts in religion
                            but youre right, i went diggin in the old old bible and it dont say side of the road :P
                            happy now?
                            it was where he was walkin so it was the road he was takn :P
                            be pickytcular i dont give a shit
                          • Unsu...
                             
                            I checked many versions. Here:
                            bible.cc/judges/15-15.htm
                            • its not like i was "quoting" it
                              i just said what i remembered from my childhood
                              i dont do politically correct
                              and i dont give a good fuck about a book that man wrote prtending he was god
                              but just for your sake i wont say anything anymore that isnt copied n pastd from some greater authority
                              • Unsu...
                                 
                                Doubt it.

                                Settle down before I put a lip chain on you.
                                • gettem Mal! snatch an ear too
                                  • Job 39:19-25
                                    • Unsu...
                                       
                                      NICE.
                                      • I knew you would like that one.
                                        • Not an Aquasport , Mako , Silverton or Grady White owner amongst yas . Dear God in Heaven ! ! ! ! Well on my frigerator door with magnet holding it on - one tide chart for Ocean City to Wildwood NJ and one for the Delaware Bay and in my pick up is a tide chart from Ocean City to Wildwood NJ . 103 replies and nothing about carrying some scuba gear along as well . Lip Chain yes but no scuba gear . Unbelievable ! probably not even one jet ski owner in this group or survivalist .
                                          land lubbers and shoobs . where is my surf rod ? eels are hot with the stripers now . Crap it just started pouring rain . and I have the afternoon off .
                                          • Unsu...
                                             
                                            Back to boats shall we??? We are preparing to place our 24.5 foot Four Winns Vista cruiser in St. Clair Shores this spring. To get to and from this boat we have to go through Detroit which is not very comforting at all. Our plan now is to build a 68 Volkswagon bug into a Baja buggy. This little car will survive an EMP because it has no Electronic ignition parts and gets 28 miles per gallon. They can be run off road to escape Detroits highways which would be full of dead cars. They are just plain cool little cars anyway so why not? Custom painted and we will name it (Buggin Out) I'm going to build the old 1600 upright fan motor to a modest 1641 with one set bigger pistons and jugs which just bolt on. Dual port heads, header and a 40 mm Weber Carb. Ignition will be all Bosch coil, plugs and wires,cap and rotor and points. It will bring the little motor up to about 65/70 hp. and move the little bug pretty damned good. I will keep our bob in the Bug and we can fish with the comfort of knowing we have transportation out of the area if shit hits the fan while we are there. I went over the boat and she will run even after an EMP. My 115 hp 4 stroke Mercury will not as it has a computer in it. That boat will be worthless if we are hit by an EMP.


                                            The plan as it stands now would be to bring the Cruiser into the marina and dock it. Put the mooring cover on and load up the bug for our trip home. We have a good Delorme map of Michigan and will avoid the biggest highways and make our way back to the farm using secondary roads and rural routes. The bug will always have a full tank of gas as I will make it policy to fill up when we arrive at the boat so we can fly out of there if need be.

                                            I plan on Keeping at least one small rifle and two hand guns in the bug locked in the trunk. Our boat bag has become a traveling BOB. We carry everything from para cord to food bars, vitamins and bottled water. In the event we end up on foot we will have 4 days of water and food. Our time frame is from June 1st to November 1st so there are some colder periods where I will need sleeping bags and a tent also packed and I might just keep those items in the boats rear cabin. We thought about just taking the boat through the St. Clair river to Lake Huron and following the coast up to Saginaw Bay and leaving it in the Saginaw river and walking over land from there but that is still a long way to walk. The Bug is the right way to go for us. Mike
  • Unsu...
     
    I am an avid boater ive been a shrimper for 15 yearsand owned about twenty boats. If you just wanted to stray from society like right now a boat woukd be great you have shelter and transportation. One downside is your twice as likely to be boarded and harrassed on a boat as to land you have to have all your proper documentation and safety equipment. I keep a small boat for inshore fishing near the creeks and a larger boat for fishing farther offshore but often times the cost of gas compared to fish ususually isnt worth the cost unless your a commercial fishermen. But in a shtf situation I think there will be a major shortage of fuel then your just stuck on a boat luckily i live on the coast so I try to do both land and sea. If you can sell your seafood then you can afford fuel and just live on the boat. When the gas goes so will a big chunk of fishing. www.survivalistbook.webs.com/
    • Unsu...
       
      Going all the way around Michigan would take hundreds of gallons of gas. Im not even sure how much but the Cruiser only has a 90 gallon tank and at 30 mph Im sure I could only go about 180 miles from Lake St. Clair That would not get us far enough. Nope the car has to get us home or we walk. Mike
      • Unsu...
         
        Why aren't there any 'fuel economy' boats out there?

        Why is almost every modern boat just 'chopped' at the stern... a flat shape to create drag? Is it that hard to keep a boat pointed forward that you can only streamline the bow, and the stern has to be an ass-dragging hydrodynamic vacuum? why not a very large 'canoe' type shape?

        What has everyone not told me, that makes it so much better to have only half of a low-drag shape for the body of a boat?

        I'd make a 30 foot viking Knaar.... with dragon heads at the ends.... And get an old VW diesel engine running through a ducted, counter-rotating propeller for when the wind wasn't favoring me. will somebody explain to me any reason why this wouldn't be an awesome idea for a fuel-economic and highly maneuverable bugout boat?
        • sounds like a winner to me
          you gonna put the oars in too?
          • Unsu...
             
            Why not? Oars, shields alongside, big squaresail...

            although I think there is a lot of improvement to be made in the sheets and rigging. We've learned so much about more efficiently harnessing the wind in the last 1400 years, you know?
            • a nice longboat, fore and aft rigged
              amas on both sides, out far nuff to not hinder the oars
              waterjet for power propulsion
              retractable daggerboard for deep sea sailing
              my first design was pretty much that
              • Unsu...
                 
                Okay.... and here's another thought I've wondered about boats....

                Sails:

                There is a lot of aerodynamic 'waste' in the shape of a typical sail set at 90* to the wind. Lots of turbulence on both sides with a sort of 'dead' pocket in the middle of the front and back, where the turbulence cancels out and forms a sort of buffer of stale air, held in place by the currents around it as they make their way around, under, and over the sail. Hence, the net 'shape' of the sail, that the incoming wind 'sees' and reacts to, is shaped more like a fat teardrop-shaped bubble (tail of the teardrop trailing downwind) when you take these stale air pockets into account.... it doesn't cleanly hit the sail like you might think.

                Seems like a sail rigged at an 'angle of attack' to the wind could utilise an airfoil shape, to not only develop the 'pushing' thrust on the windward side, but also a low-pressure airfoil 'lift' or 'suction' to pull the sail forward from the lee side. This low-pressure 'lift' could, if formed correctly, maintain a lift coefficient much higher than the windward side's ammount of thrust from high-pressure 'pushing'..... Which is why the majority of lift for planes. propellers, and wind-generators is formed on the low-pressure side of the airfoil, not the positive-pressure 'downthrust' or 'backwash' area, as most laypersons assume.

                I absolutely cannot IMAGINE that I am the first person to come up with this idea, especially with so many competetive sailing in the world, etc....

                Maybe someone can point me to some airfoil-utilising sail types that are out there.
                • Unsu...
                   
                  Anyone thougt of using dc motors like golf cart engines in a design. Hooked to a few solar panels they wouldnt ever need recharging and with a switch to reverse polarity and a throttle you could have forward and reverse without a transmission. Im plannin on building a 20 ft prototype just to play around with in the event gas ever gets short. Maybe a retractable sail kit also. A hybrid motor would be nice for when the sun isnt out.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    I think I posted a response about using trolling moters and batteries recharged by the sun.
                • theyve been using that for years 1k
                  thats why the sails ar set close to the wind
                  just to create and use that airfoil
                  the only true bad thing about a junk rig is it doesnt create the airfoil
                  the ribbing prevents it from doing so
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    So why arent the ribs made in an airfoil shape?

                    the wind doesn't give an airplane wing it's foil shape... the ribs do! I'm pretty sure it works better that way!
                    • becuz everytime you changed tack the ribs would be backwards
                      if they wereflexible enuff to bow easily they wouldnt hold the wind anyway
                      • Unsu...
                         
                        Okay.... here's another question:

                        how does porosity play in to the whole aerodynamic characteristics of a modern sail?

                        Seems like the right balance of porosity would go far to mitigate the loss caused by 'square-rigged' sails and junker sails.... What about an airfoil sail? I'm sure some porosity is needed to help reduce 'flapping' and skin-turbulence... but how much?
                        • on that i have no idea
                          • Unsu...
                             
                            Well I know it's a big deal with parachutes.... too solid of a material and the airfoil doesn't stay inflated firmly... to much porosity and... well, you fall a lot faster than you were hoping for.

                            I would think same for a boat.... some certain degree of porosity would help efficiency.... too much would waste a lot of power.....

                            it's amazing how very complex everything can be made
                            • man has a tendency to do that to the simplest of things
                              we seem to love complexity
                              the mor complex something can be made
                              the more money someone can make off provin you cant do it yourself
                              • Unsu...
                                 
                                Chief, Submarines have been running on both AC and DC Motors for years. No solar panels but that could work for some short term mileage or real slow running speeds. The trick would be to build a solar boat top meaning instead of deck you have one giant solar collector. It could be done. Michael
                                • its been done michael
                                  saw it in some news thing a while back
                                  the whole upper deck is solar cells
                                  ive been looking into a company that makes and sells tarps with solar cells built intothem
                                  would make great sails i think
                                  • Unsu...
                                     
                                    too heavy for sails....

                                    What would work best would be to set up a catamaran type boat.... with the flat surfaces covered in panels. You'd get the most sun exposure surface with the least ammount of water-drag. You *might* be able to generate enough power to do more than troll around.... probably not though. DC motors eat up electricity and panels aren't energy-dense enough for realistic vehicle applications yet. Maybe one day we can make airplane wings and car tops out of solar panels.... but for now, the only solar powered vehicles are made with more tent-frame aluminum spars and cellophane windows and awkward solar-gain shapes.... not practical for 'real world' application, but interesting experiments nonetheless. They draw the attention needed to push the envelope further.
                                    • Unsu...
                                       
                                      There was a writer years ago who wrote the Tom Swift series of books. Tom Swift was a fictional inventer who developed a paint which acted as a solar panel. Way ahead of its day. Tomasite was what he called it in his book. Solar collection paint. Could be the next real breakthrough is a paint on solar panel type material. I love this subject. Harvesting the sun is my ultimate goal. Mike
                                      • There have been airfoils used for sails. The most bizarre sail came at the dawn of the steam engine; they used a giant rotating cylinder that rose up out of the desk. Apparently the rotating cylinder works better than a sail. However, it requires machinery to turn the cylinder so it was more complicated than conventional sails (and the whole steam engine thing made it moot.)

                                        Michael, I had heard of the paint. At present there is solar material than you can roll out like linoleum, and a few people are trying to increase flexibility so that it can be used to cover things like car bodies, aircraft, etc. Instead of peinting your car, it would be the color of the solar cells.
                                        • Unsu...
                                           
                                          there is a reason that sails are designed like they are, it's because they work ,solar panals and wind turbines are ok for running a radio or GPS but you can forget about powering a motor boat with them, It takes too much power to move the boat and that is before you think about tides and currents.
                                          Build an ark and go with the flow or move to a hill top and look down on all those poor fools on the floodplane it's up to you
                                          • Unsu...
                                             
                                            Mike your last statement is not entirely correct. I have 5 boats from a canoe to a 24.5 foot cabin cruiser. I can move any of them with a 12 ,24 or 36 volt trolling motor. Even the 24 footer can be moved by small electric motors driven by batteries charged by solar panels. Range and speed are the only variables. I could charge all day and move at night with my 18 foot starcraft and even make 5 mph. Having enough solar panels to charge 4 deep cycle batteries in one day will get you up to 6 hours of propulsion under power. You are not going to put a boat on plane with small electric motors but you can move up to 20 miles in one day on one charge. My 18 footer has a 30 gallon tank and full it weighs about the same as 8 batteries. My bow mount electric motor(Minnkota) uses 2 in series for 24 volts. These are big deep cycle batteries and I can use battery power all day in pretty stiff winds. I recently did a test with it to see how long at full speed it took to run down the charge. at 4.5 mph I was able to run for 1 hour and 6 minutes before the charge was at 20%. I moved about 5 miles at full output power. With 4 sets of batteries I could get 20 miles. The key would be to have two large sets of batteries and enough solar to charge one set. Move at night and charge during the day or charge one set while using the other. The more solar you could pack onto a boat the farther you could go. Sails would however be way more easy to maintain. A good single masted 25 to 30 foot sloop would make good speed and sleep like 6 . Armed with some post mounted 50 caliber rifles would be bad to the bone. Michael
                                            • Unsu...
                                               
                                              Michael may the sun forever shine on your endever but SIX hours at FIVE mph ( your own figures Michael ) that says it all to me and that is before you take into account tides or currents. I'll stay on my hilltop thankyou and will move nearly as fast as that standing still.
                                • Unsu...
                                   
                                  Yes a top would be the place for the panel think about how strong a electric golf cart is im saying a 20 ft boat thats plenty room for solar panels. but you dont have to go fast6or 8 maybe even ten miles per hour when your not burning gas whats the hurry. Im just suggesting a survival boat for going out longer distances from shore when you have no gas to catch fish or what ever and take back to camp. They are alreadyu sellin a small pontoon model of this boat www.inhabitat.com/2010/02/2...-unveiled/ www.solarnavigator.net/solar_boats.htm not impossible just inplausible.
                                  • Unsu...
                                     
                                    Thats an awesome boat. Top speed 15 knots. can carry 50 people. All solar power. On a smaller platform I can see this becoming a reality in the near future. Say an 18 to 20 foot cruiser with Both gas and elecrtic drives. My 24.5 Four Winns Vista has a huge section of the Bow from the wind shield forward that is wasted space that could hold at least a dozen panels. With a progress in batteries and better solar panels it wont be long. Michael
                                    • Unsu...
                                       
                                      Yeah the only problem would be affordability for a do it yourselfer. I would like to see a hybrid inboard low rpm motor also.
                                      • if you sailed and kept the solar for backup or emergencies
                                        youd get pretty far
                                        but, i know,
                                        its always nicer to not have to do anything but enjoy the ride
                                        humans are deathly allergic to real labor i think
                                        • Unsu...
                                           
                                          I cannot see how anyone can realy believe that such limited power as solar could be relied on at sea (one of the least forgiving enviroments in the world ) don't you ever get storms there,does the sun always shine?
                                          Just when you needed the power most it wouln't be available, you wouldn't be able to stay bow-on to larger waves and if you couldn't maintain 'way',then you could wind up broadside to the waves, capsize then you're in the ocean a lot worse off than you where on land. Electric outboards are for manuvering into a mooring, be realistic.
                                          If someone believed the line of reasoning in this thread it could get them killed
                                          One key element of survival is to asses risks and avoid un-neccesary threats to your safety by planning and preparation. Pie in the sky thinking and trying ideas on each other is one thing but this is non viable, trust me on this! solar will power your radio, GPS maybe even your ice box but don't expect it to power your boat, use sail
                                          • Unsu...
                                             
                                            www.inhabitat.com/2010/02/2...-unveiled/
                                            I looked at this link and couldn't stop laughing, That german boat is just a big advert for solar power that isn't "yet ready" the rest are just design models or designers renderings.
                                            I don't believe the world is flat but I do know that you will travel further and be safer under sail, the only electric boat that I have seen that seems to work is a battery/electric punt for wildfowling or fishing, even then it has oars as a back-up.
                                            • Unsu...
                                               
                                              Laugh all you want. People laughed when we thought about going to the moon. People laughed when the first car puffed and wheezed its way across America . The only drawback to electric/solar powered boats is speed. The concept works for propulsion and with better batteries such as lithium cells the speed and distances keep increasing. I would think a good sloop with both sails and solar electric drive would be a great little craft in a post shtf world. I am an avid boater now. I spend more time on the water then most people. It starts with cars and they are doing it now. Boats are next in line. Michael
                                          • in the first plce i grew up without power
                                            its never been something i relied on and never will
                                            secondly, did you ever hear of a sea anchor?
                                            when your riding a storm out,
                                            puttin on sail to keep your nose into the wind and waves
                                            is crazier then hopin an electric motor, powered from a battery, will save your ass
                                            • Unsu...
                                               
                                              www.treehugger.com/files/20...anels.php

                                              Yup solar does'nt work, this one got a guiness book of world records for crossing the Atlantic ocean in 21 days. I would say the tech is fast approaching. Michael
                                              • Unsu...
                                                 
                                                sunboat.com/

                                                www.solarnavigator.net/solar_boats.htm

                                                www.dasolar.com/solar-ener...wered-boats

                                                www.ecofriend.org/entry/15-...ue-waters/

                                                and there are more. Solar power is free power and It works. Its not fast or simple to build and is now expensive but these things will be addressed in the future. I like several of these boats with the 6 hour range for under 10 grand. Not bad for fishing a small lake after shtf. I have 22 thousand into a gas hog 18 foot fishing boat. Nope Mike you are wrong admit it. Michael
                                                • Unsu...
                                                   
                                                  I dont know much about sailing but inshore a flat calm day with 6 mph tides ill take my chances with an electric motor. Im not planning on going to New York from Georgia but wouldnt hesitate to hit the intracoastal and island hop. But I do plan on experimenting with sails on makeshift hulls cant afford a actual sailboat.
                                                  • look up sailing canoes chief
                                                    i think youll like them :)
                                                    • Unsu...
                                                       
                                                      what, like fixing a sail to a regular river canoe?

                                                      I guess for one person, it's the 'motorcycle' equivalent of the sailing world. Kinda cool. I bet you could get moving at a really fast clip.
                                                      • they work best if you rig a small pontoon off one or both sides
                                                        but yeah, they fly
                                                        ive seen em done with those cheap blue tarps
                                                        even with bed sheets
                                                        just need a mast pole, a yardarm and some ropes
                                                        lateen rigging seems to be easiest
                                                        • Unsu...
                                                           
                                                          wind-surfing rigs can really fly! I mean, in the hands of an expert they can pretty much maintain windspeed! Only problem is, they take a lot of human-energy to keep them going. You ARE the rigging, and you're making constant adjustments to keep it prime.

                                                          Otherwise people would have wind-surfed their way around the world a thousand years ago.
                                                • Unsu...
                                                   
                                                  I will admit that some PV boats have been built and that some of them even managed to perform the function that they where built for,But when you read the small print on the boatbuilders own website you find that the words experimental and concept loom large. I am most impressed by Ken ichi Horie's Pacific crossing during which he nearly died, very brave of him to push the bounderys like that but would you take your family on that trip.
                                                  Nearly all the other boats are designed for seasonal use on inland waterways.
                                                  I do honestly wish you the best of luck with this Michael but I still believe that you would be for better keeping your electric motor for mooring
                                                  I co-own a boat with my sister and we have both completed day skipper certification at nautical college, at Fleetwood in Lancashire.we are both qualified under sail. You may have experience, I don't deny this but so do I.
                                            • Unsu...
                                               
                                              No beast, you would reef sail and run before a storm,and yes I also have a trailing sea anchor. I also have a wind turbine to run LOW POWER componants on our boat. I don't take risks with my family's lives,while admitedley I only hold a day skipper's certificate, I think I am a pretty fair sailor.
                                              • i meant full sail mike
                                                and depends on your stern
                                                if the waves are too high and fast
                                                and your aft is blunt n square
                                                facin into the waves square n usin a sea anchor is a lot more sensible
                                                • Unsu...
                                                   
                                                  It also depends on so many variables, such as wind speed, depth, current, proximity to land or shiping lanes and yes as you say beast your boat, you may even have the option of raising a small lug sail aft wich would also keep you bow-on but yes you are correct. My argument is that solar power isn't sufficient to power a sea going craft I'm happy for you to hold your own opinion buti f you look at those links michael put up, realy look, the solar power is only suplimentary to existing engines on the freighter, the real boost comes from sails, others are lake craft or just concepts
                                                  • yeah im not gonna argue the solar, its a long ways from primary power

                                                    but give it a few more years, i think we will see some major improvements
                                                    • Unsu...
                                                       
                                                      Maybe it will at that beast, at least I hope so because that will mean that the technology improves for a lot of other applications as well.
                                                      BTW Beast, I like the new avatar.
                                                      • lol, that was my halloween costume :P
                                                        • Unsu...
                                                           
                                                          It suits you so well.LOL
                                                          iechyd da.
                                                          • Unsu...
                                                             
                                                            Mikes Quote
                                                            Michael may the sun forever shine on your endever but SIX hours at FIVE mph ( your own figures Michael ) that says it all to me and that is before you take into account tides or currents. I'll stay on my hilltop thankyou and will move nearly as fast as that standing still. "

                                                            Now my test was done using a bow mount Positioning motor (72 pound thrust Minkota trolling motor). These are not built for speed or distance. Im just showing the facts. Even with a dinky little bow mount I can move an 18 foot fishing boat over 20 miles on one charge. What you should read into this post is that with a more efficient drive motor ,larger prop and enough battery power one can reach 10 to 15 mph and sustain that for 8 to 10 hours. Second I have no plan to do this. I fish every week using electric trolling motors so I know from experience how far they go and how well they work in wind and current. I live on a 200 acre lake full of fish. A small solar boat would work excellent here. Even on much bigger inland lakes Like Lake St. Clair (Detroit Area) which is 28 miles across solar powered fishing boats would work well. Trolling speeds of 3 to 4 mph out for 8 hours? Back in and moored to charge for another day. This stuff is right around the corner from being a reality. I really think that Batteries are the real Achilles Heel of any renewable energy be it wind or solar. Batteries are getting batter every day.

                                                            The boats that have crossed oceans have been high tech wonderful inventions that have broken new ground and in my opinion have opened the doors for the next round of innovations to be born. Nothing wrong with wind power using sails. Its time tested and proven. I think the ultimate boat would be a 30 foot single masted sloop with solar Charged battery back up electric drive for those calm days when the sun is bright and the wind is dead. Better than rowing any day of the week. Michael
                                                            • but rowing is fun
                                                              • Unsu...
                                                                 
                                                                Not fun rowing a 30 foot sloop ha ha ha . But in all truth solar can charge batteries. Some days they charge batteries real fast other days its a trickle. In a shit hits the fan scenario having sails and electric solar drive would give you the best of both worlds. Electric motors are silent as well so like sails you have stealth but both ways lack the speed of a Gas or diesel powered boat. It takes an enormous amount of power to put a boat up on plane. Sailboats dont plane they plow through the water. Electric boats are in the same class unless you have some real horsepower which will eat battery power fast. In my opinion Solar boats will never be any faster then sail boats but thats not really a bad thing. Michael
                                                                • always remember some old comercial
                                                                  dude says "i have good news and bad news rowers"
                                                                  bunch of dudes mumbling
                                                                  "the pharoah has said you each get tomorrow off'
                                                                  cheers and applause
                                                                  "bad news is for today he wants to water ski"
                                                            • Unsu...
                                                               
                                                              Allthrough this thread I have been arguing against using solar or PV as your MAIN POWER SOURCE in a SEA GOING boat.

                                                              Seasonal tourist boats and electric trolling motors ( Mains charged overnight ) fishing a lake through the day are not the same as going to sea in a boat primarily powered by PV solar energy.

                                                              However " I think the ultimate boat would be a 30 foot single masted sloop with solar Charged battery back up electric drive for those calm days when the sun is bright and the wind is dead. Better than rowing any day of the week" is a statement that I can agree with Michael, it might even make TEOTWAWKI a bit more fun.
                                                              • Unsu...
                                                                 
                                                                Well , we both agree that gas and diesel will be a short run if the end comes. Batteries also have a shelf life as do electric motors. Sails get ripped and need repairs as well. With no replacement parts any form of boat has a shelf life as far as propulsion goes. Sails will last the longest and can move you anywhere as long as the wind blows. Sail boats have other advantages and disadvantages such as how much water they draw due to deep keels which are needed to keep them from tipping over. I dont know how to sail so Im not going to buy one. For us living inland like we do a small fishing boat is all we need to keep food on the table. Oars work fine for that. Its been an interesting discussion. Michael
                                                                • Unsu...
                                                                   
                                                                  Yes it has and It's this kind of discussion that realy thrashs out a subject. In truth Michael you have opened up my mind on the subject of solar energy, even though it's in short supply right now.It's been fun
                                                                  • Unsu...
                                                                     
                                                                    Wanna see something really cool google electric cars. There are even buy and sell boards for parts and conversion kits for small gas cars. The Lithium Battery is the real game breaker that is going to push electric drive vehicles into the norm. For now I have my Big Lead acid Deep cycles in my boats and they work fine for what we do with them. I am looking hard at getting into an electric car with a 50 mile range that I can charge with two 80 watt solar panels. They say if you plug them in to your house they cost about 3 cents per mile so I multiplied that by 50 miles and I get $1.50 for 50 miles . Now thats like 50 miles to the gallon with gas at a buck 50 per gallon. Right now its a lot cheaper to drive an electric car then Gas. However the limitations are huge. If you use the heater,wipers,lights etc that number goes down fast. Im thinking a fair weather car during the Michigan spring,summer and fall months. Quick trips into town for groceries, Boat gas, etc. My wife drives 13 miles to work so she could go electric right now until the snow flies. The top 10 sites when you google electric cars are awesome . There is a Geo metro converted for sale that just needs batteries for 3500.00 . It has a 40 mile range and tops out at up to 80 mph. But will get a solid 40 miles if driven under 60. Cost was 3 cents per mile for that one. Anyway I enjoyed the topic as well. Michael
                                                                    • Unsu...
                                                                       
                                                                      What REALLY excites me about electric cars.....

                                                                      is that they're the only current option for battery technology where investors know the research will bring good enough returns to warrant pushing the envelope.

                                                                      Car batteries with longer shelf life and greater capacity will revolutionize the off-grid home power, which is the only one that pertains to my interests.

                                                                      It will also, however, revolutionize the military robotics industry, and that scares the shit out of me.
                                                                      • have a look at seawater batteries
                                                                        pretty interesting
                                                                        incredible shelflife
                                                                        • Unsu...
                                                                           
                                                                          sea water batteries? Like Jules Verne concieved over a hundred years ago when he wrote 20,000 leagues under the sea? The Nautillus was powered by sea batteries. Something to do with deriving energy from salt reacting with other metals.
                                                                          • yuppers, they start to go dead and you replace the seawater
                                                                            pretty cool
                                                                            you can even set electrodes in the oceans and draw power like the earth batteries im told
                                                                            wish i was closer to the sea so i could test this out
                                                                            • Unsu...
                                                                               
                                                                              hm..... you could just trail 1,000 yards of floating line with an electrode on a little buoey at the end. awesome.
                                                                              • takes 2 electrodes per cell
                                                                                and several cells to get decent voltage
                                                                                • Unsu...
                                                                                   
                                                                                  Yes... and the other electrode is right at your boat. I had assumed this was a given.

                                                                                  Wouldn't really do much good to have both electrodes on long floating wires so that they're just 2 feet apart, 1,000 feet behind you in the water.
                                                                                  • ahh my apologies
                                                                                    ive been toying with the idea of mounting electrodes on opposite sides of the hulls
                                                                                    it doesnt seem to make much difference how far they are apart
                                                                                    what matters most is surface area, amount of electrodes and the flow of fresh water
                                                                                    more electrodes give higher voltages
                                                                                    more surface area gives higher amperage
                                                                                    iv been thinking large plates with horizontal fins
                                                                                    copper on one side of the hull, zinc on the other
                                                                                    • Unsu...
                                                                                       
                                                                                      Your going to go through a lot of zink that way beast.
                                                                                      • copper too
                                                                                        • Unsu...
                                                                                           
                                                                                          Good thing pennies are like 98% zinc nowadays.....

                                                                                          not that I would tell anyone to break the law by melting down pennies............

                                                                                          but just FYI...

                                                                                          the copper value of pre-1983 pennies is worth almost 3 cents on the market, and even modern pennies are worth about 1.7 cents if you sold them as scrap.

                                                                                          That's what happens when you start using fiat currency and you abandon the gold-backed standard. We're running out of things that are cheap enough to be worth printing our money on lol......
                                                                                          • even shit isnt cheap enuff to use as a filler......lol
                                                                                            • Unsu...
                                                                                               
                                                                                              motorcycle engine cases and hard components are often made of zinc alloys. Same with cheap lawn mowers. It's not hard to get ahold of gobs of zinc alloy... but I don't know how you separate it back out, or if it can be done.
                                                                                              • potmetal its called
                                                                                                i dont know how to seperate it either
                                                                                                but im trying to find out :)

                                                                                                you left off most cheap cupboard door handles
                                                                                                many automotive lock housings
                                                                                                and light fixtures
                                                                                                • I have toyed with the idea of a seminar . One of the 2 survival web sites that I have written for has an owner who is an new boat owner . Nothing large or fancy - an 18 foot center / c . Since we view boats as an " extra " means to get away ( for a short period of time and or distance ) and since posting this article and searching even more web sites with no info on this concept - then having a bug out by boat seminar seems to make sense . It still boggles my mind , 8 weeks after posting this topic , that I am NOT finding boats or boat OWNERS that are geared up if need be . Am I surrounded by the wrong income tax bracket ??? This is not meant in a derogatory sense but it seems to me that almost all of the web sites I have searched are mostly Jon / Lowes boats or small under 20 foot boaters . None of these sites have gone into packing the gear for a 5 day getaway ( including weapons of course ) unless it is how to keep your champagne and brie chilled . WOW . Two of my friends say I should not do this as the less shoobs out on the water the better . But there are good people like " Squirrel " who is prepared on land yet now with his new boat never considered that large river in South Carolina ( 20 mins from his home ) as an escape route . Any thoughts ladies and gentleman on a bug out boat seminar ?? BEAST I am in agreement with you on the cutting firewood as needed . Especially after I hit 55 LOL .
                                                                                                  • one of the largest problems with boats for most is accessibility to water
                                                                                                    not every waterway leads to the sea, nor are all large enuff to boat down safely
                                                                                                    my thoughts are that going over 30 mins to a BOL, (unless you have over an hours prewarning)
                                                                                                    is asking to not make it
                                                                                                    murphy's laws have the greatest bearing when you need them least
                                                                                                    when TSHTF 'everything' will go wrong, and i mean everything
                                                                                                    your BOV will be out of fuel, the radiator will run dry, tires will be flat
                                                                                                    family will be scattered hither thither and yon
                                                                                                    no one will have their bags with them and they cant remember where they leftthem
                                                                                                    and its all gonna happen in 10minutes time
                                                                                                    no warning, we wil all be caught totally off guard

                                                                                                    making plans is nice, praticing them once a week is better
                                                                                                    having bugout boat when youre 300 or more miles from the open sea just isnt practical
                                                                                                    in way too many ways to list
                                                                                                    that is why you dont see much about it
                                                                                                    • Unsu...
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                      Well, I have 5 boats now in fact we are tarping the 24.5 foot Vista cruiser today. It is sitting on a huge tandem trailor and has one chevy 350 for power. We had it winterized a couple weeks ago. We live in Michigan and are almost an hour away from Lake Michigan. W e are however close to a major river system that drains into Lake Michigan. The 24 footer would never make it down river without running aground. so Im stuck Pulling it to a launch. If Im going to do that Im going to just run my 18 footer which uses much less gas.

                                                                                                      However why would I leave my farm where I have food, water, defenses, weapons, friends,family and security? I do not have a bug out plan as we already bugged out in 2008 when we bought this BOL.. The plan is to place the 24.5 footer in St. Clair Shores on Lake St. Clair for pleasure use and fishing. If it all goes down while we are there it will stay there and rot. To me bugging out by boat is not an option at all. Weather is so terrible at times that it would be almost certain death to try some huge body of water for any length of time.

                                                                                                      But if I was a sailor and were to bug out to a predetermined place like a remote Island I would want to use a 30 foot Schooner/sloop type of craft with sails and backup electric drive with solar power to run things like radio, depth finder, and refrigeration. I would stock things like canned goods salt , sugar , seeds, weapons, fishing tackle and an array of tools for construction of a new land shelter. Using a gas powered boat would be a one way trip in most any case.

                                                                                                      So no thanks, Im already bugged out and dug in. Michael
                                                                                                  • Unsu...
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    Crazy Joe, have you considered packing survival gear, that you are just treating as cargo, in a nacel, attached to a smaller type of boat on the outside of the hull. the displacement of the nacel takes care of any additional weight and it gives you loads more space inboard. This makes the cargo less accessable and creates additional drag but it could be worthwhile to move the extra supplies.
  • one thing we hvent coverd, is this a boat a BOV for escaping to your BOL
    or is it your BOL?
    big difrence there
    one is for short term use, would be best use for a highspeed power boat
    the other would have to be seriously self-sufficient for long term usage
    • Unsu...
       
      Good point, since I would have to drive three hours and then wait for high tide before leaving the harbour, I think the question is accademic in my case.
      I'll stay put, since I'm pre bugged so to speak.
      • I am waiting on the two survival site owners I have written for as when to post notice on a bug out by boat seminar this late spring . I will post exact date / weekend here and on " Survivalist " . In advance it will be for those folks in the Delaware Valley / South Jersey area . Being nice to shoobs - what am I thinking ??? It will be about 5 hours long including a grilled lunch / BBQ perhaps at the bulkhead . Nice view .

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